Dear Master
At the centre tonight you spoke on relationships and holding relationships right.
Could you share more on this ...
What is our relationship with religion?
What is our relationship with you?
What is your relationship with us?
What is the function of mysanggha?
Thank you Master
Amana
Posted by: Ma Prem Amana (Uma) Category: Others Dialogues: 3
There is much to this question, and much has to be entered before one can come to an understanding.
The first thing is that, the very need for discussion is based on that one is alone, one can't follow, one can't keep the blindness going, so each has to come to one's own sight.
So the very need shows that one is onto oneself, you are alone, so no following is possible.
This has to be established, and only then we can move rightly ...
The next is about relationship.
Remember the word means to relate, two individuals coming together without losing oneself,
establishing oneself for oneself and then meeting without losing oneself, and this is the understanding of relationship ...
That is why I am against any cult or any form of people coming together in the name of personal mission, it can be even about the word enlightenment, or spirituality. Yes there is some right to this, but mostly I have seen it's just a way to avoid this truth that one is alone, and it tends to allow one to pretend something more than what one is in one's aloneness.
This is why I maintain my aloneness, I have no group or following, not even a teaching,
with me your aloneness is absolute. I have no group to give you, or anything for you take refuge to pretend this or that, you are held to yourself by yourself for yourself ...
In one of your questions, you have asked what is your relationship with me ...
First it's not something that is given, and I maintain I have no relationship in a general sense,
to anyone, I am not this or that for anyone, to take a role.
Even if one is a disciple, that is his truth, not because of me. As for me I am nothing, some think I am this or that, and that is their business, I have no attachment to it ... why this is said is, because if I am this, you can be that, this should not be allowed.
This is how false gurus exists, for they allow another to lie they are disciples, and many are fooled by this. A disciple is a personal attainment, one comes to it by oneself, it's not something anyone can give you.
If at all a real master or a guru exists, only if you have come to be a disciple can you be with him or learn with him and then if something happens between the master and the disciple, then one can be a guru's disciple if the guru accepts, but this does not happen often.
It's very rare, it's like falling in love, you can't organise it, so many factors are in it, so many things have to happen.
In this world so much is made an automation, made a structure, an organised thing, and in this many play a role.
Like the idea of a guru, this is not an organised thing,
one can't just be a guru, there is no such thing, he can be a guru to you, but that is something that happens, but this has been made a claim and many play this role.
One can be even enlightened, but will he be your guru, is something that can't be predicted.
I went to Osho to learn, read his books, but only Krishnamurti did it for me. Yes I learnt, but
the guru that delivered is another matter ... in the East the guru is the one that can deliver you, and this is possible only in deep contact and it happens, but it can't be organised ...
it can't be made a following ... it's like love affair ...
In my case, I can only offer in general to be a friend, and a friend to mankind, that is all I can offer, if someone becomes more than that, it's a personal happening, so it can't be organised or even spoken about.
In the East, there have been many organised things in regards to this, almost anyone can claim to be a disciple and anyone can claim to be a guru, and this is their right, but I don't subscribe to this in any form.
I maintain it's a personal happening and this can't be organised, and if it's organised it can become very easily a cult ... and all cults are a way to exploit, one way or another ...
Now we recognise Nazi is a cult, and the way it came to this is that it gathered many followers to live out one man's madness ... and the only way it can be is when one gives up his will and his individuality, and subscribes to something someone else has created.
If at all I have something to say, I say that one has to go beyond influence, one has to come to oneself for oneself, and maintain a deep sense of individuality and only in this, love can happen and this is the base of being a disciple, and only when you are a disciple something can happen with someone that has come to the light, not till then.
So there is only personal and the universal, there is no collective, the collective is what makes you lose you, and this is how all is lost.
You have asked what is your relationship with me ...
For now all I can say is there is nothing much, I am a friend, but to some of you that I have known and have learned to care for, I am something more, but that is personal, and I don't have to speak of it, but to the general and if this question is for the public, I am just a friend at most ... for I am not this or that.
I maintain I am nothing much to this world, just a boy from a fishing village, and a husband and a father, that is all ... maybe I can be this, the first man that is awake, who is just a man, a father, a husband and a friend ...
To me the word spiritual means something so personal, something so deep, it's like being in love, it's like the relationship with your wife, husband, children and something of that nature ...
It's not for the public. In my case, I have very little to do with this world, nor have I seen any role in it ... there are insights I have written and spoken, it's just my research and insight, it does not make me this or that, there is no role to be given to this, it's just a knowledge or a living intelligence, that is all ...
This question that you have asked is important, for this is the lie that has happened to many, when roles are given, as though it's a role for the world, and many are fooled with this misunderstanding ...
Once it was asked to Ramana, are you a guru, and he said, "I am not sure, some say I am, and others look at me this way or another, but I am just me, that is all."
He did not take a role for the world or for others to make them this or that, he remained silent,
and this is my stand too.
Ramana had disciples around him, and that which happened between the disciple and Ramana remained silent, it remained sacred ... it was not a role.
Posted by: Master Dhyan Vimal
Your next question ... What is our relationship with religion?
Know that religion is here to bring some order, to bring man to what he can be, or should be,
and your relationship with it is yours, your commitment to be right, that is all. Many have said many things about this, some are for it, some are against it, but the truth is your relationship with it - are you rising up to what it's keeping alive or trying to live out.
I was birthed into Hinduism, and that is the challenge I have to live out, and one of the base of it is the celebration of individuality, and a non-collective existence. There is only personal and the universal in it, that is why we put our hands together when we greet each other, this is bowing that you exist too, it's not just a group ... in this the spiritual truth is kept.
Each that is birthed into a religion, I believe should live out the challenge that it puts out for you, and that is your relationship, and if you have had no religion, then you should see the challenge that exists as you, as being the best you can be.
From my view I have no preference, I am living out what I am birthed in, and that challenge itself is enough for me, and I have no problem with all religion, for all offers one to rise to what one can be too.
One of the beauties of being a Malaysian, is that there are so many religions, and we live without making a problem out of it. The way I see it, each is to live out that challenge their faith holds them in.
Posted by: Master Dhyan Vimal
What is the function of mysanggha?
It's a space in which dialogue can happen,
where anyone that has come to see that they have to inquire, they have work, they have to live out what is their responsibility ... to come together, and in this togetherness their aloneness is not lost, their individuality is not taken, but they can inquire and live the insight.
In another sense, it is where individuals that have come to their disciplehood gather to learn, and it is a space in which I can share something I have come to, that is all ...
In a bigger picture, it's record of the work that unfolds in your inquiring,
this record can be an asset for future seekers who might want to inquire.
On a personal note, it's a place I meet the people that I have come to have a relationship with, and people that love has come to exist between us ...
That is all.
Posted by: Master Dhyan Vimal